Following a Finnish initiative, on Monday evening (1st of August) over 70 IST, Contingent Leaders, planning team members and participants met on Winter Town Square to exchange experiences and views on being gay, lesbian, bi, transgender or queer (known as LGBTQ) in Scouting. Under the rainbow flag symbolizing how diverse, colorful and happy the LGBT people are, more and more people arrived. Luckily, enough benches to sit on could be found from the tents around so everyone would find a seat.
In a short game the crowd found out where they all came from (around the world) and how different it was in their countries and Scout associations to be gay or lesbian etc. Some talked about big difficulties in their Scout lives, others thought that it was fine to be “queer” in their environment. After some small discussion groups a vision was formulated to make Scouting open for all, supportive of young people who find out that they are “different” and develop a network of contacts of different countries in order to share tools and support. 
There will be a open gathering for everyone who wants to meet, this Friday, 5 August 2011 at 8pm on Winter Town Square. Come and join! Some are discussing to prepare further actions and initiatives at the World Scout Jamboree to show that it is cool to be gay/lesbian/bi/transgender/queer. If you want to talk to someone, you are welcome to talk to anyone who is wearing the rainbow button, or the Listening Ear team, which can be found at the Info Centers or cafés.
Photo: Fredrik Sahlström/Scouterna
Friends,
We had a fantastic “Simply Scouting” Jamboree with its three elements of Meeting, Nature and Solidarity. Around 40 LGBT participants and leaders made themselves identifiable with a rainbow button for others with questions. And they received a lot. All of them were positive and some extremely relevant as the following story shows.
I witnessed an encounter which should make us very proud: a young man from the Arab world approached a woman from the Netherlands to ask how she could live as a homosexual. Talking about the situation in his country he suddenly mentioned that he was gay. He had never talked to anyone about it before. He tried to fall in love with girls as told but couldn’t.
Truly, as the Jamboree song asks us, we changed this boy’s world: he was confused, thought something was wrong with him, didn’t know who to talk to. He is planning to study in the US, hopefully he can be a Scout there then! He couldn’t stop repeating how glad he was to talk about his fears and questions with someone who went through the same, even when under much easier conditions. Whereever he goes, he knows who to call if he needs help.
Tracey, what the heck are you worried about when you say your relative should not be in a leader or advisor to young people. Having contact with gay people is not going to turn young people gay. If some of those young people turn out to be gay it’s because they are anyway, and wouldn’t it be great for them to have a good role model who is also gay.
I have two kids in scouts, one at WSJ at the moment and one who has just returned from a local scout camp. Am I worried that they have contact with gay people there…no I am not, because who ever they meet will open their eyes to new ideas and ways of thinking. This will enrich them as people and in the end they will be their own person.
If one of them told me they were gay, I would totally accept them and embrace them . Would I be worried about them…yes, not because of who they are but because they may encounter predjudice from others who can not live and let live.
I am amazed that with all the emphasis at the WSJ about openning our eyes to new people and cultures that this discussion is even taking place.
I have to agree with Anna K on this one. I have a gay relative but I do not think he should be allowed to be a Scoutmaster or Advisor to young impressionable boys or girls for that matter when you talk about Venturing. I know this is a very touchy subject and I know some countries allow the LGBTQ to exist in Scouting but here in the USA we do not. I guess it is about morals. Just my two cents
Can this organization that I love so much really afford not to let great leaders in based on their sexual orientation only?
@soaringeagle
It so happened that I ran in to the bishop of Stockholm, Eva Brunne, the other day. I have a very hard time to see the immoral, unethical deviations of her lifestyle that you describe. She is an awesome leader and great role-model (for both old and young) and I would be honored if she would be leading my kids in any kind of scout-activity. From what I have seen of her in her role as a wife and mother I see nothing self-indulgent in her lifestyle.
Could you (or anyone who shares that belief) please explain to me (and her) why the fact that her partner is a woman too should disqualify her as a scout?
As a gay man taking part in this Jamboree, I am a little concerned at the moment ‘Some compare being gay with drinking/smoking’. It is cool to be gay/lesbian/bi/transgender/queer’ just as it is cool to be straight. I have nothing against straights, have straight friends, but I do not really want anyone to talk about being gay as if it is the same as drinking/smoking. Those are actions for which you can chose or not, being gay/straight/bi is NOT a choice nor a action. Or is there any straight person who can tell me that he/she ever had to chose to be straight, like to chose to have children or what to have for lunch? To be honest, I had to laugh a little bit when I read this comment. I have been educated that people are born as they are, some are really nice people,etc. Just as I wouldn’t want someone to be giving anyone the impression it is cool to drink/smoke, I don’t want anyone to compare my sexual orientation with drinking or smoking. There’s nothing about being gay that can be promoted as cool, and I do not think there is anything about being straight that can be promoted as cool.
Hi Sandra, My comments are not meant as gossip, this is a place to post comments.
Hi,
I do not understand how you can debate on this “item” It’s very discourteous that your scouting spirit does not prevail instead of making gossips on your “friends in scouting”…
As a parent of one of the youngest scouts taking part, I am a little concerned at the comment ‘Some are discussing to prepare further actions and initiatives at the World Scout Jamboree to show that it is cool to be gay/lesbian/bi/transgender/queer’. I have nothing against gays, have had gay friends, but I do not really want my daughter being told it is ‘cool’ to be gay. This makes it sound inviting to the young. I have educated her that gays are born as they are, some are really nice people,etc. but just as I wouldn’t want someone to be giving her the impression it is cool to drink/smoke, I don’t really appreciate this either. Just as I have nothing against gays, I don’t think this should be promoted as cool either.
It is not a choice to be gay. It just is. There are Scouts there who are struggling with this issue and who fear the loneliness, discrimination and the loss of friends. It should not be this way but this is how it is in some places. For a Scout to see, meet and talk to someone who is comfortable with their lifestyle choice, adjusted and productive would be a great comfort. Everybody needs a role model. Some Scouts may not be able to even talk to someone with a rainbow button for fear of reprisal.
Just as this Jambo experience may be the only opportunity a Scout from some countries to meet someone from another country or culture, it is the same regarding the LGBT issue. This may be the only time for some to meet a LGBT person safely. There is a time and place for everything. Maybe this might not be appropriate for younger scouts; however, we are dealing with young adults at Jambo. It is a confusing time for some kids. There is a high rate of suicide among teens struggling with sexual orientation issues. In Jambo we are promoting a safe environment for constructive conversation about all topics such as religion and culture. Why would this topic not be included as well?
If you saved or helped one child or one young adult, wouldn’t this conversation opportunity at Jambo be worth it? If you want Scouting to survive and impact young people into the 21st century then offer the opportunity of applying Scouting values of friendship, kindness, courtesy, respect etc to the discussion of this lifestyle option.
I agree with the comments of Bjorn. If you need to get the boat to shore, does it really matter what the lifestyle is of the person who is padding?
Human rigths for old!!!!!!!!!!!
I am sorry to read so many negative (polite phrase) comments from people within scouting, it is important that we understand and celebrate our experiances and differences with each other.
How boring would our world be if we were all clones. Yes scouting should be informative and supportive of all young people as we are all different in different ways, be it colour ,race, religion, sexuality, wealth, politics…. and yet this is what makes our movement so strong , that we can join together with these differences between us and have our scouting group identity without losing or compromising our individual identity.
I think opposite than all of you. I really think you do _damage_ to kids if you only have them meet standardized situations and normative people.
Well, I think it’s really good that the discussion started. I think it’s better to talk about than stay in silence. That’s why I’m really proud to wear the rainbow button! I’m open for everyone who wants to talk and see how normal a lesbian can be
Greatings from Wies Dutch IST
@soaringeagle “Many believe that the GLBTQ life is neither moral, nor ethical. That is a deviant (as in straying from the norm) behavior…”
That is true. The norm also used to be (and still is in some places) that women should not be allowed to vote, to scout and so on. The norm was that the colour of ones skin determined how you were treated. Those norm changed because that is what norms do, they evolve.
When you lift the question about pedaphilia you touch on a very important question. It should be adressed in the right context thou (such as the on camp discussion with the Swedish queen on “how to keep children safe”). Two problems you open up for when you bring it up here are, One – statistically almost all of these kinds of crimes are committed by heterosexual males. Two – this kind of reasoning can be applied on so many other things like “most crimes are committed by this or that group don’t let them in” or “living a life in celebathy is not the norm, don’t let catholic priests be in the scout movement” and so on.
Should christian people be excluded too because if you let them in the christian fundamentalists who comitt terror actions could be next?
Well, Tireka, I wonder what the problem is with allowing such people into Scouting.. after all, Scouting is about acceptance first and foremost, and second of all, they are, as you referred to them, PEOPLE first and foremost.. I believe your reaction to be a little overrated.
I am a huge supporter and defender child protection laws. In Germany, there is an age limit at 14. No-one above 18 or in a leadership position should have a relationship with someone under age or in his responsibility area. That is the case for my group leader as well, of course.
Clear NO and OUT to guys who have a preference for kids – no matter whether those are men or women with boys or girls!! Heterosexual pedophilia is happening at least as often as homosexual. Keeping children safe from harm is our first job.
Europe should not be in a “post-value” area. Human rights, equal rights and allowing everyone to live a respectful sexuality and partnerships up to their orientation is a value within this.
I don’t mind straight persons, as long as they don’t touch me
Why is it that those who cry loudest for tolerance, are often the least tolerant?
@William – I am prepared to acknowledge other people’s values, but does that mean I must accept them as fully valid and implement them into my own life and the teaching of my family or into the other programs which are used to raise youth? Of course not.
@Helena Andersson – You are right, the core of the Scouting movement was, is and will always be about character attributes, such as friendship, kindness, and good citizenship. It boils down to preparing people for a moral and ethical life and to face the challenges and decisions that will be a part of that life. Many believe that the GLBTQ life is neither moral, nor ethical. That is a deviant (as in straying from the norm) behavior in society and that it panders to a self-indulgent lifestyle.
@Björn -Your comment, about one of your leader having a “younger girlfriend” which ignites fear in many parents minds. You do not say how young she is, which leaves open the potential of predatory behavior on the part of adults on children. The fear of a continued change in sexual standards begs the question, when will it stop? A strong supporter of the GLBTQ community, their publications and events is NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association, which advocates for the removal of age laws between sexual partners, the legalization of pedaphilia. This would turn Scouting into a dating service for older men and women seeking vulnerable youth.
@Sansa – The majority of the US citizens are indeed religious, and mostly Christian, while much of Europe is clearly in a post-Christian era. I hope that does not mean that Europe is in a post-ethical era, a post-value era.
@all – I will stand in support of the those Scouting organizations who have chosen to stand true to their ethical standards. Many who have abandoned them have seen significant declines in membership as parents choose other organizations to be a part of raising their youth. The Scouts of Canada is a very clear example of that.
I hope that you have found me Scout-like in my responses: courteous, kind, friendly. I hope also that we will all be tolerant enough to understand that others hold values and understanding different than our own, both in and out of Scouting.
Have a great Jamboree. Maybe we’ll see you in West Virginia, USA in 2019.
Being “wiser” and more open-minded will be a great output.
The USA are indeed a religious society still as Bjorn put it. “Pursuit of Happiness” is still a dream there.
Rhino, there is no reason to present our members with ONE (normal??) way of life, religion, type of music or food style. The world is colourful and the earlier they can explore and learn to navigate in it the better.
I’m very proud to ligth this debat!
I think all of us will be richer and open-mind!
Don’t you?
Please, Henrik & Bjorn, get relaxed; I repeat: I’m not homofobic. My daughter has got an homosexual Akela; and I’ve sleep with this Akela in the same tent; no problem. I only will mean than we must provide to the young people a pattern, and this pattern, and our behavoir, must allow a personal progress from a hetero identity to the infinity…
But i MUST BE A PERSONAL PROGRESS, as is in each part of the scout Method.
We can’t show (I think) a queer behavoir as a normal (I dpn’t know what’s “normal”). We must provide tools for the final conclusion of each one in this personal progress, in order to get a happy life, acording whit the inner feelings of each one, But I think that our rol, as Scout leaders, must be “impartial”. The Akela I said always was in a very male rol with their Cubs )including my daughter), andnhe was fully accepted as homosexual in the Kraal
Not as sarcastic as Henrik:
Young people have a couple of (as?) parents, maybe grandparents, married or single aunts and uncles, gay neighbours, married and divorced teachers etc. The world is diverse. A lot of options amongst which they have to find the suitable ones for themselves.
Why should Scouting present only one option when it comes to partnership and gender? Nobody would think that all Scout leaders should be engineers, teachers or artists. The more we offer, the more our members can learn by example.
My Scout group has gay and hetero leaders, both with a partner or single, a married couple, an unmarried couple with a baby, a group leader with a younger girlfriend and so on. “The Multi-Option Society” (by Peter Gross) – sometimes hard, but inavoidable to deal with in the most competent way. If you believe in a happy future during your life (not merely in the afterlife, and that might actually be the problem with quite some people in th US which is partly not yet a postmodern society), picking and living up to the best options for you, is the only way to achieve that goal.
@Methodic Rinoceront
I could not agree more. I once met a scoutleader who had divorced. What a scandal! We don’t want our children to have persons with that kind of abnormal lifestyle as rolemodels, do we? If you look at the average population it is not normal to eat only vegan food, or to use your left hand when you write, or to come from Denmark, or to have a last name that starts with a R – throw them all out of scouting!
WHY must the pattern you talk about be “classical”? Why not show the young (and often very intelligent) a variety of ways one can live as an adult?
Why must this organization be conservative when it comes to who one can love but, so modern in other aspects? Who determines what is the NORMAL pattern?
I re-wrote my reply, because I made a mistake in my e-mail adress:
-I’m hetero non homophobic; there’s some gay/lesb among my best friends. I agree with Bjorn that they don’t choose it. But I think that we must provide a sexual patterns to the young scouts (as well as we must provide a “father/mother patterns”), and those patterns must be “classical”, but never discriminatory. Then, the young scouts, some day, will be able to choose their more comfortable rol in live (and we must breathe deep, as William said, and accept it); but only after a personal progression from the “normal” patterns. Anyway, I’m not sure what means “normal”, jaja
Kisses for all my dear queers
I’m hetero non homophobic; there’s some gay/lesb among my best friends. I agree with Bjorn that they don’t choose it. But I think that we must provide a sexual patterns to the young scouts (as well as we must provide a “father/mother patterns”), and those patterns must be “classical”, but never discriminatory. Then, the young scouts, some day, will be able to choose their more comfortable rol in live (and we must breathe deep, as William said, and accept it); but only after a personal progression from the “normal” patterns. Anyway, I’n not sure what means “normal”, jaja
Kisses for all my dear queers.
Hej all,
People don’t chose to be gay. Telling them to hide their sexual orientation is inhumane and dangerous. A much higher percentage of young queer people commit suicide. Openly gay, lesbian, transgender or bi people are happy people and not dangerous to anyone. We should all support that.
Scouting should be open to everyone and cater for needs of all young people. Today, many don’t know how to act and whether something is wrong with them. That is sad. From today on they can talk to someone with a rainbow button. If you are LGBTQ yourself and ready to be asked questions, get yourself a button from me – Simply ask for Björn at the Media Centre!
Tireka,
I regret that I’ve never been at a US scout activity but one wonders what the hll you guys are doing when you meet up if who you like to go to bed with matters that much.
You US guys sure knows how to throw a good party – do you also check for STDs before camp?
Yes, the sexual preferences and who people fall in love with always gets in the way when were trying to make a knot or put up a tent. A good scout can not love a girl (unless it is a he of course, then he _must_ love one) otherwise the boat will capsize. I’m sure of it!
@Tiereka
I could not agree more. The scouting organizations of the world should also adopt some other countries membership policies such as no women, no non-christians, no poor, no vegans, no colored people, no handicapped and/or persons with eyeglasses! If we could make these a universal scout policy in the next couple of years we will have a blast at the next jamboree. Oh and did I mention that no Japanese people should be allowed as scouts too, they are smiling to much…
Hej Tireka,
They said the same thing about blacks, latinos, japanese, poles and jews.
Ready, breathe deep, now welcome to the 21th century.
Be prepared to accept other people’s values.
Why not? Aren’t scouting suppose to be about friendship, kindness, loving others, to be a good citizen and so on? That doesn’t change just because your gay. I think you should be there on Friday so that you can experience that yourself.
Gay, lesbian, bi, transgender, or queer people are not allowed in scouting in the U.S.A, and should not be allowed in scouting in the rest of the world.